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tv   Melissa Harris- Perry  MSNBC  April 20, 2013 7:00am-9:00am PDT

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with a brush designed to crush. now, i can load up my lashes to the extreme. 200% more volume. zero clumps. this is a lash addict's dream. new clump crusher from easy, breezy, beautiful, covergirl. good morning. i'm craig melvin. this is msnbc's continuing coverage of the developing situation in boston. we will have the latest live from boston in just a moment, but first, though, if you are just waking up and joining us, here are the very latest developments. the headline in this morning's "boston globe" says it all right there. "nightmare's end." the sound of celebration and cheers took the place of police sirens and gunfire last night in watertown, massachusetts, as a relieved community emerged from five days of terror that ended with the arrest of the surviving suspect in the boston marathon bombing. police cornered 19-year-old
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dzhokhar tsarnaev in a two-hour standoff. he was hiding in a boat in the backtown of a watertown home. he had been shot, he lost a lot of blood. this morning he is in a boston area hospital. at last check he was listed in serious condition. after his capture, massachusetts governor deval patrick and authorities praised police efforts and the community's cooperation. >> it was a very, very complicated case, a very challenging case, and there are still some questions remaining to be answered. but as the colonel said, because of that extraordinary collaboration and cooperation by all of these law enforcement resources and assets and more to the point people, professionals, who brought their "a" game, we have a suspect in custody tonight. >> the community stood strong. it was a call from a resident in watertown. we asked you to remain vigilant, and you did. we got that call and we got the guy.
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and so we can't thank you enough. you've done everything and more than we've asked. extremely proud of law enforcement today and what we've accomplished. >> this whole ordeal started monday with the bombing attack at the finish line of the boston marathon. three people were killed, more than 170 injured. the suspect's older brother died early friday morning following a shootout with police. the two men are also suspected of killing an m.i.t. police officer, 26-year-old sean collier, who was sitting in his patrol car. now, police hope that the surviving suspect will be able to give them some critical information about a possible motive and whether any more people were involved. nbc's katy tur has been live with us from boston throughout the week. katy, catch us up to speed. tell us how it all went down last night. >> reporter: well, it all went down thursday night starting around 10:30.
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that was an m.i.t. police officer, sean collier, as you just said, who was shot and killed in his police cruiser. then there was reports of a carjacking in cambridge. they found their suspects in watertown. the police gave pursuit, found them in watertown and engaged in a shootout. that happened around 12:30, 1:00 a.m. friday morning. during that shootout, as you said, the suspect number one, the older brother, was shot and then later died at the hospital. the younger brother, suspect number two, the guy that they caught last night, then fled the scene. they were looking for him for almost the entire day. watertown went into a complete lockdown for about 17 hours. at 6:00 last night, the police held a press conference and said, listen, we're going to lift the lockdown. we're still looking for our guy, but you are safe to come out of your homes. people started to trickle out. they were a little wary at first because the guy was still on the loose but they started to trickle out. then around 6:50 or so last night, reporters on the ground heard shots fired.
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a lot of shots fired once again. there's some exclusive video that our affiliate station here in boston, whgh received of those rounds being shot. it's a very intense, a lot of rounds going off all at once around 6:50. then there was a standoff for a few more hours. it turns out that the suspect was hiding in a boat in somebody's backyard and they got a tip from the person who lived in that home saying i just looked at my boat. there wasn't a ladder there earlier today and i do see blood coming from it. that's how they figured out he was holed up in this boat. it turns out a hostage negotiator had to come on scene. they convinced him to come out and they took him into custody. a lot went on in just a span of about a day and a half from when they released those photos, craig. >> one of the other striking scenes last night were the folks who had lined the streets to thank officers, to thank the ems workers there for their work over the previous four or five days in that town.
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talk to me a little bit about how all of that unfolded. >> reporter: certainly a sense of jubilation. once they found the guy, you heard a call go over the scanners saying "we got him" and that quickly spread throughout the community. everybody came out from watertown and the surrounding areas and started to line the streets. as those first responders, as that police presence started to leave in a row of cars going down the street, the streets were lined with people cheering, saying thank you. it was much like the night osama bin laden was killed. the scene you saw in times square and the scene you saw down at ground zero in new york city where everybody was waving american flags. same thing happened here in boston throughout the city. fireworks went off in some sections. people were screaming and celebrating at bars. they did wake up this morning, though, and as jubilant as it was, as much of a celebration as it was, this guy is still a terrorist and there is still a sense of unease in this city and still a sense of mourning for
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the victims of this terror, of this supposed terror. he's a suspected terrorist, i should say. there's a sense of unease that one person hiding out can put this entire city on lockdown. that does give you pause. >> katy tur with the very latest from watertown outside boston for us on this saturday morning. katy, thank you. i want to bring in nbc's pete williams, our justice correspondent, live in d.c. with the very latest now. pete, let's talk about in nugget that was revealed this morning. the fbi now saying that they did in fact interview the older brother early in 2011 for some possible ties to terrorist activity. do we know why at this point the fbi did not pursue him further? >> reporter: yes, they have been quite candid about this. they say in early twlech2011, tt a request from a foreign government, and i think it's the worst-kept secret in town that it's the russians, who say
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they're concerned that he has terrorism connections, that he's become radicalized. so the fbi does what it says it's able to do under the law. they looked at whether he was in any of the federal databases of suspected terrorists or whether there was any indication that he was communicating either by phone or my looking at internet sites with any suspected terrorist organizations or individuals. they looked at his travel, travel history, all of that came up negative. so then they decided to interview him. they questioned him, questioned members of his family and after doing all that they said we've got nothing here. they said they went back to the russians -- or they went back to the foreign government and said we can't find anything, give us more. tell us more of what you think, why you think this and they say they never got a response. >> the obama administration has okayed the suspension of the suspect's miranda rights. is that a temporary suspension? >> reporter: yes, by law it is. it's called the public safety
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exception to the miranda rule. normally you have to tell someone they have a right to remain silent and if you don't, then you can't use anything they tell you in court. so that's why the miranda warning is given. but there is an exception. you don't have to do it if there's a possible threat to public safety. and here obviously there's a concern about whether there are potential accomplices. investigators say they haven't found any. or other explosives. they say they haven't found any of those either but that's what they want to ask him. and this exception probably begins to expire the moment you invoke it so it's probably no good for more than a day or two but nonetheless they can do that. afterwards they'll have to give him his miranda warning and say whether he'll continue to answer questions. the justice department says even in very serious cases like this, most people in custody do continue to talk. >> pete, who's going to be interrogating this guy? >> well, during this period of the public safety exemption, it will be done by a group that's a relatively new thing in law enforcement set up a couple of
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years ago for just these type of contingencies. it's called the high value detainee interrogation group and it consists of federal officials, fbi, cia, dod, people who are experts in the language, the culture, the sort of cases they're investigating. so it won't just be folks from the local fbi office, it's a special team that's set up for these. >> already some calls specifically from senator lindsey graham, specifically from senator john mccain for the suspect to be treated as an enemy combatant. how is legal action at this point most likely to move forward? >> reporter: well, the obama administration would never go for that, partly as a policy matter. they have made it quite clear that civilian courts are up to the task and they think in many ways better than military tribunals which are untested. civilian courts have convicted lots of terrorism defendants. it will be a federal case. they'll charge him withes with use of a weapons of mass
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destruction. the maximum penalty is the death penalty. the government will have to decide whether to seek that or not. there's an additional wrinkle here. he is an american citizen. he was a naturalized citizen last year oddly on 9/11 of last year, and there is an open legal question about whether even if the government wanted to, it could declare an american citizen captured on u.s. soil as an enemy combatant. it's an untested question. the government tried to do it in the case of jose padilla several years ago and as that case was about to go to the supreme court, the government changed its mind and put him into civilian court so we never did get an answer to that question legally. >> one question that continues to pop up and this of course would be one of the very first question if not the first question that they ask the suspect in the hospital room. how concerned are authorities at this particular point that there are other accomplices out there and that there could very well be additional explosives out there as well?
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>> reporter: well, those are the main questions. and there's no indication that the answer to either of those questions is yes. but they have got more work to do, not only asking him, but also now that they have the full court authority, they will tear his life apart. they will go and look at everybody he's ever talked to to the extent the records allow, all his internet traffic, his e-mails, where he was looking at on websites, his travel, people he was in contact with. so that will be a long process. but you know that is a question that everybody will want to know the answer to, even the president has said so. but for the legal case, it's not that essential, strangely enough. for the legal case what you have to prove is that he did it. the why part doesn't really matter so much in the law and there's pretty strong forensic case. >> pete williams, our justice correspondent whose insight as always most valuable. thank you, sir. >> you bet. let's head back up to boston where the teenage suspect was
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taken last night after being captured. he was in serious condition at last check. he was bleeding when authorities found him after that day-long manhunt through the suburban neighborhood of watertown. ron allen is standing by outside the hospital with the very latest on the suspect's condition. ron, what can you tell us? what do we know about his condition at this point? >> reporter: all we know, craig, is that he is in serious condition based on what we were told late last night by the boston police commissioner. there's been no update here from the hospital administration and they have said basically call the fbi if you want to know anything about this guy because they're not going to be the ones releasing information. this is obviously a very, very sensitive matter as the legal process goes forward, but there's every indication that the suspect was involved in a gun battle of some sort, that he was wounded. we don't know at what point in the process that happened. we understand that he was found, there was a pool of blood near him, he has lost a lot of blood.
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we also understand that when he was taken into custody, he was somewhat incoherent as well. now, he was on the run for some 20 hours. it's unclear whether he got help along the way, whether he got any food, sustenance or how he was able to maintain himself during that period. so a lot of questions that the authorities will have about how he -- what happened in the hours after the bombing and the days after the bombing, of course. we spent the day in cambridge in the neighborhood where the brothers, the family lived for the past ten years or so since arriving from eastern europe. there's every indication that the younger brother and the older brother were on different tracks, if you will, in terms of assimilating into this country. the older brother came when he was about 15, the younger brother, dzhokhar, when he was about 8 years old. dzhokhar, it sounds like he was becoming a typical american citizen, if you will, even as pete just mentioned becoming a citizen on september 11th of
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last year, very oddly. he attended -- both brothers attended a well-known public high school, cambridge rindge latin. they both attended college here. the younger brother was still in college at the campus of the university of massachusetts although there are some reports that his grades academically that he was doing poorly of late, but still a huge history as to who these people really were, really are, and just what would have motivated them to do something like this. >> hey, ron, how large is the police presence at the hospital right now? >> reporter: well, right here in front it's very small. you can see there's a line of police officers who have been here all night. the emergency room where the suspect was brought in is actually behind this building. last night when we arrived, there were a fairly significant police presence. it was clear they didn't want any media or anyone else very close to the hospital, but it wasn't a very tense situation at all. it was very laid back. things really calmed down once
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they have the guy cornered in that boat or on that property. we were in watertown last night driving around, trying to see what we could and get as close to the scene as possible, and the contrast between the darkness, the eerieness when the whole operation was going down compared to the jubilation and outpouring of excitement and celebration when the suspect was captured and as the investigators, as the police were leaving the scene was just incredibly striking, the contrast between how people were feeling moments before when they were locked down and moments after when the threat was gone and this case was essentially solved. >> ron allen from the hospital where the suspect, again, is said to be in stable condition. ron, thanks. we'll come back to you a little bit later. folks, stay right there with us. we've got some experts here in the studio we're going to talk to next. we'll also get the president's reaction to last night's capture as well. this is msnbc and our continuing coverage.
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welcome back to msnbc's continuing coverage of the boston marathon bombing and the citywide man thauhunt that ende friday evening with dzhokhar tsarnaev being taken alive. president obama offered a statement and asked some of the questions that we've all been asking. >> obviously tonight there is still many unanswered questions. among them, why did young men who grew up and studied here as part of our communities and our country resort to such violence. how did they plan and carry out these attacks and did they receive any help. the families of those killed so senselessly deserve answers. the wounded, some of whom now
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have to learn how to stand and walk and live again deserve answers. >> joining me now from the white house, kristen welker. kristen, now, again, that the suspect has been taken alive, it looks as though he is going to pull through, how soon does the white house expect to get some of the answers to the questions that the president just asked there? >> reporter: well, they hope that they will get answers very soon. as you heard the president say, he's directed federal investigators to start trying to get some of those questions answered immediately. president obama doesn't have anything on his public schedule today, but i am told that he will be in contact with his national security team when needed to get briefed on the ongoing investigation into not only what motivated these two brothers but also into whether they had any accomplices, and those are some of the questions, some of the first questions that they're going to want to resolve. so president obama, craig, was
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very careful not to come out last night and address the public until there had been an arrest, until he felt as though he had all of the information, but he was being briefed behind the scenes here. he had a briefing with his entire national security team in the situation room and then again with a smaller group of top advisers in the oval office. during that meeting he placed phone calls boston mayor tom menino and massachusetts governor deval patrick. so there's a lot going on behind the scenes as the white house continues to monitor what is an ongoing investigation, ongoing situation, but there is no doubt they are breathing a sigh of relief here at the white house. there have been some really tense moments here. of course nothing like what the folks in boston have been experiencing, but just as a little bit of a scene setter, i can tell you that pennsylvania avenue has been closed off to pedestrian traffic ever since the bombing first took place on monday. now, the secret service says that is out of an abundance of caution.
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still, it underscores the fact that this city has been on heightened alert. >> kristen welker from 1600 pennsylvania avenue, thanks. i want to bring in clark kent now. crock and robert page. good to have both of you. thanks for being here. clark, you're a former homeland security official. what are going to be the next steps for the administration in terms of the investigation? >> well, law enforcement officials, the fbi, the intelligence community are going to be combing through every piece of evidence available to them, which means cell phone records, e-mails, social media postings by both of the brothers, travel history, to see whether there are any indicators of why they did this, whether there are accomplices or associates. they're going to leave no stone unturned. it's terrific that the younger brother survived and provided he pulls through, he can be enormously helpful in answering
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these questions. >> what are you hearing so far about some of the information that's been gleaned from facebook, from twitter, from youtube, from some of these social networking sites? >> we know that the older brother went to russia last year, january of last year, spent about six months out of the country. we don't know that he was in russia the whole time. but afterwards, he did some social media postings which suggested that he might well have been either radicalized after that or further radicalized due to that experience. we know that he's talked to associates and said that he felt alienated from the united states, from america, didn't have friends here, didn't really belong. the younger brother seems to have been more integrated into our country but likewise he said he identified with islam, that was his world view in his words. so there was a process of radicalization that both of these brothers went through and we'll have to find out more about that. >> bob, one of the things that seems to bother a lot of folks in this country the most right now is you have two young people, 26-year-old and 19-year-old, who lived among us, who were for all practical
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intents and purposes fairly socialized, one a boxer, one a wrestler. what does that tell you -- what does that tell you, first of all, about them and what does that tell you about this case? >> well, it tells me that they're probably part of a pattern that we've seen with homegrown terrorists and what i call homegrown transnational terrorists. we've seen this before with the london suicide bombers in 2005. these were four friends who lived in the london community. they were actually quite socially integrated into the london community. many were athletic. one was a black belt, one played cricket just a few weeks before doing his attack, very much like the brothers here. they were friends first in london and then they evolved into terrorists. what appears to have been a pattern here is brothers first who then evolved into terrorists. and i think we can say something more about how that happened, but it probably goes beyond simply things like social alienation, which applied to
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millions of people or also goes beyond having some devotion to islam, which again goes to millions of people. what probably happened here is an unusual circumstance where a group of friends, or in this case two brothers, began very politically upset about some issue. >> and we don't know what that issue was at this particular point, do we? >> well, we don't. i think we can probably speculate based on other cases, but my point is that once that issue begins to fester and the anger begins to spiral in this tiny little circle that's separate from the rest of -- it's isolated, self contained, it can actually become quite explosive. >> let's take a quick break. after the break we'll pick up where you left off. who were these suspects, how sophisticated was the attack and is there reason to believe that others were involved. stay with us. [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness?
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the week-long hunt for the suspects thought to be responsible for that devastating
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boston marathon bombing is now over. the teenage suspect captured last night. he is currently at the hospital receiving medical attention for a gunshot wound suffered during the chase. dzhokhar tsarnaev was found in watertown where a local resident discovered him hiding in a boat in his backyard after a day of law enforcement going door to door in that neighborhood. tsarnaev, along with his older brother who died in the wee hours of the morning yesterday following a standoff with police, is suspected of planting the bombs that killed three, wounded more than 170 others monday. while still on the hunt for the teenage boston marathon bomber, law enforcement discovered explosives inside the tsarnaev brothers home in cambridge. reportedly the fbi found among other things pipe bombs with fuses and a type of synthetic powder inside that apartment as well. i want to bring in james cavanaugh, an msnbc analyst, also a retired atf special agent in charge and also a former hostage negotiator. mr. cavanaugh, good to see you.
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first of all, let's start with the hostage negotiator who was on the scene last night. based on your experience as a negotiator, what do we think he said to the suspect to get him out of that boat? >> they threw a flash bang at the boat. the way it transpired apparently was the massachusetts state police, s.w.a.t. on one side and atf special response team on the other, they brought in the boston police and fbi hrt, the flash bang diversionary device was deployed and a negotiator talked him out of the boat. now, what would the negotiator likely say? >> yeah. >> you would say dzhokhar, dzhokhar, are you hurt? and you would, you know, try to get a reply. yes, no, you know. are you hurt? yes. do you want to come out? yes. >> okay. that could be the complete negotiation right there. so in that small phrase, it's a
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concern for the person's well-being, which is genuine, but it's also some way to diffuse the situation. this guy was pretty weak, craig. he had been bleeding all night. he's not a big guy and he lost a lot of blood. he might have been shot again in that volley of 20 shots or 40 shots. >> and no food as well all day yesterday. >> that's true. >> based on the caliber of the bombs used, both at the marathon and during the chase, james, how sophisticated were these devices? >> well, you know, they're very simple really but they're effective. the fact that some powder was found by the police and agents at their house, it would be interesting to see what kind of powder it was, whether it was an improvised flash powder mixture or gun powder mixture and flash powder. they're simple, but they're effective. i would say, having investigated bombings for 36 years, that they tested somewhere these devices. they had shot these devices before. >> yeah. >> they were familiar with the fusing and firing system.
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or, or there's a separate bomb maker that supplied them. i'm not intimidating that that's it, but i'm just saying that the bomb is reliably enough put together to function pretty good. one of the things we need to find out is how was it detonated. remote control, a cell phone, a timer, that's not clear yet. >> and once we know that, am i to assume that that will then tell us more than likely whether these guys acted alone or whether they had someone who was advanced in bomb making? >> well, maybe a little more advanced and there's a little more certainty to how it's detonated. you know, they were only 10 or 12 seconds apart. it's kind of hard sometimes to get timers to be that close. but, you know, it kind of feels like it could be a remote control on a car door lock type thing or something where you hit one, you hear the blast, the flash. oh, yeah, okay, and then you hit
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the other one. so it could be, or it could be two timers, but it's electrically fused, we know that. but they learned to do it somewhere and they probably tested it. the thing that has to go on now is are there accomplices in new england? has anybody helped them? is there any hidden bombs? is there a storage facility? you know, when they fled after their pictures were out, craig, they probably grabbed what bombs they had because there's no report of other bombs in the apartment, and they had another pressure cooker, they had a bunch of improvised hand grenades, and they grabbed them all up and they went on their fight and -- flight and fight at the same time mission on that night. >> retired atf special agent in charge, james cavanaugh, james, thank you as always. much more to come here on msnbc. we'll talk a little bit more about the suspect specifically, how and why they may have done what they did. stay with us. m red lobster's chs to your table for a limited time! it's our seafood dinner for two for just 25 dollars! a handcrafted seafood feast made to share.
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msnbc's continuing coverage of the boston marathon bombing. after last night's capture of suspect, 19-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev, who -- just who were these two young men who wreaked havoc on the city of boston? robert pape is with us and clark kent ervin. bob, let's start with something we were talking about during the break here. the absolute next step in this investigation is going to be what? >> we're going to go to that, quote, foreign government that gave us information about the older brother a few years ago and we're going to want to know what exactly they had that led them to make a request that we interview them. that information is crucial. it's probably our next best lead at this point. why is that? you see our nsa, our security services, we suck up an amazing amount of information around the world, far more than we can process. but with little bits of information, we can then go to
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that untapped information and fairly quickly connect some dots. well, that foreign government that asked us to interview the older brother, they did so for a reason. we want to know exactly what that reason was and then we're going to put it to good use. >> and there's a good use that someone has probably already done that in the hours since his capture, right? >> there is a very good chance, we just don't know who that government is. and the truth is the faster that happens, and the more there are calls for this in the media, the better, because that information could just be the tip of an iceberg. >> clark, you've said that you were surprised that we have not seen additional attacks on soft targets in this country since 9/11. >> that's right. you know, i left the department of homeland security in 2004 and shortly after wrote a book with the department and the country's homeland security securities. and i worried about soft target attacks simply because they're
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less well protected than hard targets like military installations, iconic government buildings, et cetera. and an irony the harder we harden the hard targets, the more likely it is that terrorists will exploit our vulnerabilities with soft targets, like sports venues, entertainment complexes, shopping centers. that said, we are a free and open society. we don't want to change our way of life. there is a limited amount that we can do to protect ourselves against these kinds of threats, and so this is -- i'm afraid now this is a danger we'll have to live with now that we're in the era of soft target attacks in the united states. >> bob, we know at this point that the fbi at least talked to the older brother back in 2011. was a key opportunity missed there? >> i really doubt it. i suspect very strongly that the fbi, especially when you're dealing with local aegal aliens lots of records already. so if there's a request to come in and investigate, they already have material they can go to to
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start an investigation. we just heard on your show that his e-mail records were looked at. we examined all there was with his family, his connections. we found nothing. the key question is not what the fbi missed then, it's what they weren't told then and now we want to know. >> at this point, clark, based on what you've heard, what you've read, what can we make of the level of sophistication? >> well, i guess i'd say a couple of things, craig. this wasn't the most sophisticated plot, it wasn't al qaeda central like, it wasn't like 9/11, needless to say, but these guys weren't bumplers. the fact that the attacks took place on an iconic event like the boston marathon, the fact that they had multiple explosives and the fact they didn't flee immediately, all this suggests there may have been additional attacks they were going to carry out. i think these guys were fairly
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sophisticated and obviously did huge, huge damage. >> do we know how strong the foreign connection is at this point? >> no, we don't. let me be clear, just because the foreign government may have information doesn't mean that the foreign connection equals direction by a terrorist organization such as al qaeda or any other terrorist organization. there could be lots of other reasons why this government was worried. perhaps there were mailings, just ordinary postal mailings that they came across with information that this person wanted to create some harm. we've seen that, for instance, in our country with threats to the president of the united states. ordinary postal mailings can be quite important, but it wouldn't be picked up in things like a search of cell phone records and so forth. >> quick break. when we come back, we will get into this reported trip that one of the suspects took, that six-month trip to russia. we'll talk about how that could factor into this investigation. come back. for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please.
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welcome back. one of the most dramatic moments as events unfolded friday was when the bombing suspects' uncle, ruslan tsarni, talked to reporters outside his home in montgomery village, maryland. >> somebody radicalized them, but it's not my brother. who just moved back to russia. >> what do you think provoked this? >> being losers. hatred to those who were able to settle themselves. these are the only reasons i can imagine. he put a shame, he put a shame on our family, he put a shame on the entire chechen ethnicity. >> uncle ruslan there from maryland yesterday. the associated press has reported the older suspect traveled to russia back in 2012, last year, for about six months. i want to bring in nbc news correspondent adrian mung who is
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in moscow for us to pick up the story from there. adrian, what, if anything, do we know about that trip to russia last year? >> reporter: well, good day. it's still unclear whether the elder son tamerlan, actually did meet someone suspicious. we know that he was with his father. his father has spoken at length about both sons actually. he did confirm the man did come out and visit and stayed with them. both parents have actually said that they believe both sons, the 26-year-old tamerlan, now deceased, and the 19-year-old dzhokhar, the one who's in custody in the hospital, they say that they were framed. and the mother has actually accused the fbi of regularly harassing the family. she says because they are chechens, ethnic chechens. now, the parents have been living more recently in dagestan
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which is in the north caucuses region. now, this is a very troubled area. it's a small russian republic, but it's neighboring chechnya. both of these areas have seen a lot of conflict, particularly an active separatist group in dagestan right now, there's a mission taking place in the area to clean up what the government says is a guerrilla group. now, the mother, of course, has described her sons as good people and that they were persecuted because they were chechens and has disavowed any relationship to terrorist groups. there was an aunt in canada, though, who said in an interview when she last spoke to the elder son back in february, it appeared that he had become very religious and was praying five times a year. we believe that the father just last night after an interview with the local network was taken into custody for questioning by the russian intelligence agency.
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he was released a few hours later. back to you. >> really quickly before i let you go, for those who are unfamiliar with the history, explain just a little bit about the tension between russia and chechnya. >> reporter: well, chechnya is a fairly sizeable area. i guess you would call it a republic of some sort. since the soviet breakup, there have been at least two significant wars basically. although a lot of historians will say that this is something that dates back at least a century. a lot of these chechens ended up fleeing to dagestan, which is next door, and that's where this family, the tsarnaevs, ended up in the capital there. and it's believed there are a few hundred thousand of these refugees who believe very strongly, some of them rather, believe at the strongly in an independence cause.
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>> adrienne, thank you so much. do appreciate your reporting. folks, you're watching msnbc's continuing coverage of the terror in boston. much more to come after the break. stay with us. ght.t. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes. departure. hertz gold plus rewards also offers ereturn-- our fastest way to return your car. just note your mileage and zap ! you're outta there ! we'll e-mail your receipt in a flash, too. it's just another way you'll be traveling at the speed of hertz. with olay, here's how. new regenerist eye and lash duo. the cream smooths the look of lids...
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we are back talking about the bombing investigation with clark kent ervin, also bob pape. bob, i want to start with you here because you're skeptical about this connection between the boston bombers and chechnya. why the skepticism? >> i think people are looking for the root motive in the wrong place. it probably has very little to do with something particular about chechnya. in chechnya, they're concerned about independence and especially independence from russia. well, first of all, right off the bat, the united states has been critical of russia in chechnya. we have been condemning russia for its human rights abuses in chechnya. further, the leaders of the
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chechen rebels have not put america out as a target. there are no calls to target america or to kill americans. the leaders of the chechen rebels call to kill, they call to kill russians. further if you go to the main pro-chechen independence website, you'll see there is a discussion of the boston bombers. they call them strange. that is they're distancing themselves from the boston attacks. now, so what does that mean? that means that there's probably something that's happening here that's loosely connected to chechnya, but not specifically so. and we've seen similar things in other homegrown terrorist cell its, such as the london bombers in 2005. in 2005, we saw four bombers, three of pakistani origin, one of jamaican origin, who were motivated by perceived injustices against muslims around the world. they weren't focusing on muslims from pakistan or jamaica, they
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were focusing on muslims who were under occupation in iraq, afghanistan and elsewhere. and their muslim background brought empathetic sympathy from them that then bled into anger and then obsession and then a willingness to kill for that perceived injustice. >> clark, i want to go back to the miranda rights. why do reading of the miranda rights? what would have been the harm and how unprecedented is this? >> right. well, as pete williams was explaining, there is this public safety exception to the general requirement that suspect's miranda rights be read for precisely the situation we find ourselves in. if there is concern that there might be a continuing threat to the public, further explosive devices, others connected to the plot, follow-on plots perhaps, then that gives the law enforcement authorities the right to question this suspect without advising him of his rights to have a lawyer. it doesn't last indefinitely, for a couple of days or so, but
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this is a period right now that's being exploited no doubt by law enforcement officials provided the younger brother is in a condition to talk to them. >> based on your experience, what's the likelihood that this 19-year-old is spilling his guts right now or will spill his guts as soon as he can? >> well, i wouldn't say that it's likely, but it's certainly possible. and we know that there have been other instances. an d abdumutallab opened up and even after given his miranda rights he spilled the beans. so these investigators, these interrogators are highly skilled, from the fbi, from dod, the intelligence community. they have great ability to establish a rapport with the suspect. the more rapport that's established, the more sympathy that is shown for whatever causes he associated with, the more likely he is to unburden himself with other additional information we'd like to learn
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about follow-on plots. >> bob, when history looks back on this particular terrorist attack, how will it be judged, how will it be classified? >> it will probably be homegrown terrorism, an isolated cell. >> and we're confident, we're confident that this is an isolated cell? >> well, we're not confident yet but it's certainly heading in that direction. the reason is not just because of the details of what we know here, but as i said before, we do have a history of brothers and friends just in tight-knit cells being pretty much the main cell. >> all right, you guys stay right there. we're going to take a quick break. we're going to reset. stay with us, folks, throughout the day. again, quick break. we'll continue to follow the story out of boston. we'll go live once again to boston to find out specifically about what's happening on the ground there today. we'll also get an update on the suspect's condition as well. this is msnbc. itch to swfer swe, and you'll dump your old broom. but don't worry, he'll find someone else.
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a good saturday morning to you, top of the hour. i'm craig melvin. this is msnbc's continuing coverage of the developing situation in boston. we will go live to boston in just a moment. but if you are just joining us, here are the very latest developments at this hour. the second suspect in the deadly boston marathon bombings, 19-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev, was captured late last night. he remains in a boston area hospital. he was last listed in serious condition. he's under armed guard at that hospital, we're told, after a massive manhunt that virtually shut down the greater boston area, the teenager was found wounded, hiding in a boat being stored in the backyard of this house in watertown, massachusetts. news of his arrest, as you might imagine, a huge relief for that community that had endured five terrifying days. many folks took to the streets in celebration. massachusetts governor deval patrick and authorities praised police efforts and the
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community's cooperation. >> i want to also just thank all of the members of the public for their extraordinary patience, their participation in this investigation by reviewing photographs of their own and others that were up through the media, and we thank you for that, and helping us narrow in on these suspects. they were helpful and patient and we are grateful for that as well. it's a night where i think we're all going to rest easy. >> i can't be prouder of my community and the men and women of the watertown police department. what we've been through the last 24 hours, i wouldn't want to see another police department go through. >> again, this whole thing started monday with the attack here the finish life of the boston marathon. three people were killed, more than 170 were hurt. the suspect's older brother died early friday morning following a shootout with police. the two men are also suspected
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of killing an m.i.t. campus police officer, 26-year-old sean collier, who was sitting in his patrol car. now, police are hoping that the surviving suspect, that 19-year-old who is in serious condition, they hope that he will be able to give them some critical information about a possible motive and whether more people were involved. nbc's kate ty tur joins me from boston. katy, what's the scene like today? >> reporter: today there's still a police presence here. we still have the crime scene on boylston street still closed off. a good part of the city is still closed off. in terms of relief, there is a lot more relief. you're not getting the checkpoints that you had yesterday. the city is no longer in lockdown, which is the good news. there is some relief here in the city but certainly not back to normal. >> give us the tick tock again for folks just joining us. walk us through what happened thursday and walk us through from that point to last night. >> thursday around 5:00, 5:30,
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they released two fophotos of t two suspects. late that night around 10:30 there was reports of shots fired on the m.i.t. campus. necessity found an officer killed in his car. then there was a carjacking in cambridge. they chased them to watertown andy engaged them in a shootout. that's when they found out they were the suspected marathon bombers. the older brother, the suspect's older brother was shot and killed during that. they actually found that he was wearing an ied on his chest. the younger brother, the 19-year-old that is now in the hospital and under arrest was able to flee the scene. they were looking for him for pretty much all of yesterday in watertown. they had the entire town of watertown under a lockdown, as police went door to door looking for this guy. that extended to the entire boston metropolitan area. a shelter in place order. the city was in a word under
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siege essentially, and then around 5:30 yesterday afternoon they released that. they let people come out of their homes even though they had not found their suspect yet. people in watertown started trickling out, they were still very anxious certainly. and then at 6:50 or so, reporters on the ground, that's only about an hour after the press conference when they said they didn't have him. reporters on the ground said they heard more shots fired. we saw video and heard some great audio of all of those shots being fired. then they were in a standoff with they believed the suspect, who they thought was holed up in a boat in somebody's backyard. the owner called police and said my boat is shrink wrapped but there's a hole in it and i see blood. that's what led them there. they were in a standoff with the 19-year-old suspect. a hostage negotiator came in and managed to convince him to come out. and that's when you just saw the streets of watertown and the streets of boston erupt into wild celebration. as the first responders and the
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police officers and the fire department and everybody involved in this were leaving watertown, because everything was over, the streets were lined with people cheering them and saying thank you. a much different scene, a much wildly dramatic different change from just a couple hours earlier. >> it was like an impromptu parade there on the streets of watertown. ka katy tur, thank you so much. we'll come back to you a little later. i want to bring in pete williams now live from washington, d.c., our justice correspondent who's been all over this thing from the very beginning. pete, i meant to ask you something earlier that i didn't get to so i'll do it now. whatever happened to those three folks who were taken into custody in new bedford? >> reporter: i believe they were questioned and released. these were apparently former roommates of the two bombing suspects. they were watching them and they simply decided to question them and let them go is my understanding. >> what's now going to be the timetable on the actual filing
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of criminal charges? >> reporter: well, they could come as early as today. certainly the government has been working on the charges even before they found the two people who were in the pictures they released friday. they had the bare bones of the case prepared, waiting to put the names in, and they have been flushing that out since the people were identified last night or -- let's see, it was thursday night now they started to get -- to realize who they were. so they have had 24, 46 hours to work on the charges. i think today it's possible either today or tomorrow, but i still think it's possible we'll see them today. >> news has surfaced about the fbi's previous contact with the older brother. what more can you tell us about that? >> reporter: i can tell you what the fbi says about it, which is in early 2011 it got a request from what the fbi describes only as a foreign government but which we believe is the russians saying that they thought the older brother had some jihadist
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tendencies and the fbi should look at him. in response to that the fbi says that it did look at whether he was in any of the known terror databases in the u.s. they say he was not. they looked at whether there was any evidence that he was paying unusual attention to jihadist websites or was in phone conversations with terror suspects, was taking unusual travel. and eventually they interviewed him, they went to the house, interviewed him, other members of the family. after doing that check, they say they found nothing so they went back to the russians and said, you know, we come up empty here, tell us more. the russians never responded so the fbi considered the matter closed. >> did the russians initially before they made that request, did they give any indication about what might have led them to believe that they had, as you put it, jihadist tendencies? >> reporter: i'm sure they did we just don't know what they were. they would have been in
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classified channels. of course the relationship that the united states has with the russian intelligence service is not the most robust, even in the best of times. and i suppose it's further complicated by the fact that this family is ethnic chechens, and of course the united states has long condemned russia for its policy towards chechnya. so that may have somewhat clouded the communications here. but in any event the fbi says it believes it did what -- all that it was permitted to do. now, it was after the fbi's interview that the brother finally goes to russia, spends six months there. his father says that he went there to visit his family, to visit his father. but what else he was doing, i don't know. of course what we don't know is if the russian intelligence service was concerned about him, what did they do when he came there last year. he left in january, came back in july. and of course we don't know the answer to that question.
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>> pete, how concerned are authorities right now that these two may have been part of a larger cell in this country, and how concerned are they that there may also be additional explosives out there that have yet to be discovered? >> well, they certainly want the answer to both of those questions. there's nothing so far we're told to indicate that either is correct, that they either were accomplices that they had that were working on the marathon bombing or perhaps other attacks or that they were part of a larger cell. no indication of that. although i will say that because they couldn't rule that out and because there were some things that they wanted to chase down that they found troubling yesterday, that is something that they spent an enormous amount of time and energy on. at the end of the day they seemed to conclude that the answer to that was no. no to both accomplices and other explosives. one other thing to note here is that everybody wants the answer to that question, for many reasons. the people of boston deserve an answer. the president said we want to know.
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you always want to know what the precipitating event was in cases like this that would cause someone to become radical. to try to see, you know, if it's happening elsewhere. but for the legal case, it's not essential. all you have to prove for the legal case is that they did it. the why is -- juries want to know the answer, but it's not legally necessary, so the core of the case will be what they did, less so why they did it. >> our justice correspondent, pete williams, from washington, d.c. for us on this saturday morning. pete, thanks to you as always, sir. >> reporter: you bet. folks, stay right there. after the break we'll get the latest on the suspect's condition. also the search for answers.
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the total number of marathon bombing victims in boston hospitals is now 53. 53 patients. but there's one other boston
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hospital patient who is the subject of intense focus right now. let's go back to boston. beth israel medical center where the teenage suspect was taken last night after being captured. dzhokhar tsarnaev reportedly in serious condition. he was bleeding when authorities found him after that day-long manhunt through the suburban neighborhood of watertown. nbc's ron allen is live in boston with the latest on the suspect's condition. ron, at the point do we know whether officials have had an opportunity to talk to him in his hospital room? >> reporter: no, we don't, craig. we presume that they are trying to. we presume that investigators are trying to start questioning him as soon as possible, but we really don't know what his physical or mental condition is at this point. we only know that when he was brought here, when he was captured, doctors -- investigators said that he was in serious condition. we believe that he was bleeding heavily, he lost a lot of blood. he was described as somewhat incoherent. remember he had been on the run for some 20 hours.
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no idea exactly at what point he was wounded or how long he was trying to deal with the wound, whether it came at the end or during one of the other shooting incidents. all of those questions remain to be answered by authorities. hopefully at some point in the near future as this case -- as the details of what happen begin to emerge more fully. you mentioned the 50 some odd patients who are still in the hospitals here in boston. that's a vast improvement from the number that was originally given to us of about 175 or more. we should also point out that one of the patients in the hospital still is a 7-year-old girl who is in critical condition at boston's children's hospital. there were a number of children who were in critical condition just a few days ago. that number has come down to one. there were three or four patients all told who are in critical condition so this nightmare continues for them and their families. there's also the police officer, the transit officer, richard
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donahue, who was caught in the gunfire during the chase of the suspects, was also in critical condition at a hospital in cambridge. so while we are focusing on what's happening with this individual, this suspect in this hospital, there's still a lot going on in the community generally. a lot of families still trying to hope that all this turns out for the best, that their loved ones improve and are able to continue on their lives in some good fashion, i should say. it's hard to find the words because, again, it's a very -- still a very stressful situation for a lot of families with loved ones still in the hospitals here. >> ron, i'm so glad you made that last point with the folks who were still in the hospital in boston. our thoughts and prayers are with them. thank you so much for that. really quickly, though, before i let you get out of here, do we know at this point the suspect who is behind you, has his condition improved at all throughout the course of the night or is it about the same as it was when they brought him in? >> craig, all of this is being
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kept under wraps and for obvious reasons, and the short answer is no, we don't know. i guess we'll be able to determine if he is charged, then of course there's perhaps some improvement in his condition but we really don't know. the authorities are handling this very delicately, very carefully. and we will see going forward how much they will release to the public. during the past few days, the investigators, the state and local officials were very forthcoming to the extent that they could be in trying to keep the public informed about what was going on. the novelty of this situation is that it involved so many people, because at one point there are a million people who are in lockdown. so going forward, we'll see how forthcoming they are. but of course the imperative is to build a case against this individual and to go forward with the legal process and of course to let the public know as much as possible. >> ron allen, we appreciate your reporting and your perspective,
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sir. thank you. joining me here in the studio now, once again clark kent ervin, robert pape. clark, let me start with you. it would seem to me that there is no understating how important this 19-year-old suspect is right now in that hospital room. how valuable is he going to be to this investigation? >> well, that's right, craig, he's absolutely critical. we hope of course that he recovers and he's well enough to cooperate if he chooses to cooperate. as i was saying earlier, the history is that these suspects do tend to cooperate. he can explain his motivation. he can explain how he was radicalize d why he was radicalized, also with regard to his brother. more importantly he can tell us whether there are others involved in this plot, whether there are other explosive devices. again, there's no apparent reason to think that the answer to those questions is yes, but we need to find that out definitively and no one is in a
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better position to answer those questions than he. >> bob, what's the likelihood that the older brother left something behind that might detail some of the aforementioned? >> well, i think a telling detail was when he was killed he appeared to be wearing a suicide vest or certainly a bomb. it's described as an ied strapped to his person. and also the doctor who examined him after he was dead said there were burns. and that's a sign of a suicide vest that fizzles. that is it's not particularly well made. but it is probably is the case that it was a suicide vest, in which case that tells us several things. number one, that they were likely going to do another attack and so it was very important to shut them down. not just to get them for justice but to get them to save people. number two, having studied thousands of suicide attacks, that's what i do and my team does, it is also very likely that there will be a record, either a written record or a video testimonial left behind by the bomber, knowing that he's
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not likely to come back. that could be something we don't find for some time. and number three, just simply looking at the material that was on his person will help us forensically to compare it to ied -- not just ieds but suicide vests in iraq, afghanistan and even chechnya, to be able to compare the exact way it was made, which will tell us quite a bit. >> bob, if this guy wanted to be a suicide bomber, why didn't he at least attempt to do it at the race? >> we have seen actually some other complex attacks where the cell first did an ordinary attack and then did effectively a suicide attack later. in the madrid bombings in 2004, march, 2004, a group planted ordinary bombs on trains in madrid. they were more sophisticated and wanted to kill much more, and so they detonated bombs that killed almost 200 people in tunnels in madrid. then afterwards when police were
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about to grab them, they did effectively a suicide attack, hoping to get the police officers. here what you see with the older brother is something that looks like that, which is that there's a first round of an attack and then when the police are trying to grab them, notice that we have information the brother was running toward the police. this could easily have been an effort to kill quite a few of those police officers or, if not in that engagement, down the road do another attack that is a follow-on attack and, therefore, just simple low kill more people. >> clark, we know that they are poring over computer records right now. we know that they are undoubtedly going to be looking at cell phone records and trying to decipher any type of communication that these two folks may have had with friends and family, terrorist organizations as well. what would be the golden nugget? what would be the one piece of evidence that would make the investigators' day? >> well, you know, i actually
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doubt, craig, that there will be one nugget. my bet is that there will be pieces here and there that will add up to a mosaic that could, could tell us what the motivation is and tell us whether there are other people involved. it's very, very rare to find just one thing that is the smoking gun. >> do these -- typically, folks who do things like this, is there a strong desire to get caught and a strong desire to let the world know why you've done what you've done? >> there's actually several different motives. when you look at the individual motives of terrorists and especially suicide terrorists. prestige is actually one of the key motives which is why so many make martyr videos or leave other testimonials behind. they really do want to shout about this, not necessarily right after the attack. second, revenge. some are doing it for revenge. others are doing it really because they believe the attack will bring attention and publicity to some transnational cause. as i mentioned before, the idea of other -- of muslims around
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the world being underperceived injustice, this is something that we've seen motivate other homegrown attacks and this could well be a motive here. >> folks, stay right there. when we come back, what is the most crucial piece of evidence that investigators might have to work with if it's not a smoking gun, what are some of the other things they're looking for. we'll also talk about some of the stuff out there in social media as well. come back. while aody in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. celebrex can be taken with or without food. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks.
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welcome back to msnbc's continuing coverage of the boston marathon bombing and the citywide manhunt that ended last night with 19-year-old suspect dzhokhar tsarnaev being taken alive. now a new phase of the case begins. interrogation, investigation and hopefully, hopefully some information as well. joining me now, former deputy of counterterrorism on the national security council, nbc news terrorism analyst, roger kresie. always good to see you. i want to pick up where pete williams left off earlier in this hour and i want to talk
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about the russian government and the six-month trip that he took. what do we know, first of all, about that six-month trip at this point and also what might the russian government know that we need to know? >> so, craig, i think that's going to be one of the more interesting questions that the u.s. government will be exploring in the coming days and weeks. here are the facts that we know. we know he left the united states in january of 2012. he went to russia, came back in june of 2012 and immediately after that started to post some of these extremist images and thoughts and tweets and videos online. the russians came to us in 2011 and asked the fbi to look at the older brother to see if we had any information on him. when we passed back that we didn't, we never heard anything else from the russians once we gave them that answer. so russian security, the fsb, is extremely good at what they do.
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it is inconceivable to me that if tsarnaev was someone of importance to them in 2011, that when he arrived in russia, they did not at least have some understanding of where he was going, and if they did, then in theory they should be able to monitor some of his actions for those six months. so we're going to ask the russian government what did they know and when did they know it. >> roger, what have we been able to glean from the older brother's -- or the younger brother's involvement in social media, youtube, facebook, twitter? >> well, there's a lot of interesting information, craig, and some of it's contradictory in terms of the conclusions you can draw, which is why we've got to be really careful not to draw any conclusions yet. that's why we've got to continue to get data and get facts. we do have enough pieces of data to help put together that mosaic, as clark mentioned earlier, that is critical for
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u.s. intelligence that will give us leads and ideas about what avenues to pursue, but his activities in russia during that six-month period and then when he came back and what he's tried to do online in terms of sympathy for extremist movements and ideals, is there a connection there? that's going to be one of the big questions we're going to need an answer to and hopefully the russian government will be in a position to answer that question. >> roger, what are the most important things that authorities can learn immediately from the 19-year-old suspect who is in that hospital room in boston right now, as soon as he's fit to talk? >> well, he has the potential to be a tremendous source of information for us, to help us answer the question why, to help us answer who else might have been involved or at least was aware. i mean there are with gt and unwitting potential accomplices here. plus he'll be able to deconstruct what his brother's motivation was, the ideology that he was pursuing.
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for the obama administration, craig, the big question here is was this really self-contand? were they self-starters and had no outside influence? or was that outside influence in terms of inspiration, training, et cetera. those are two enormously different answers and will push the administration in very distinct and different directions as a result. >> roger, based on your experience, when you've got two guys like this who have been allegedly making bombs, a number of bombs, they have been planning this attack, how likely is it that no one, no family member, no friend, how likely is it that no one knew anything? >> i find it very difficult to believe that. it's not impossible. but, craig, if that in fact proves to be the case, that's a very chill conclusion because that means two individuals with no help, with no activity that caused anybody in their family or their broader circle of acquaintances to question what was going on were able to
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systematically plan, prepare and execute one of the most deadly attacks we have seen in some time as well as put together a series of additional ieds and with only one conclusion there, to launch additional attacks, so there has to be additional information out there. the question, of course, is in hindsight, it's easy to recognize what that information would have led to in terms of activities, but whether or not there was anything prior to monday that people should have been able to pick up on and then act upon. >> roger cressey, always a pleasure. thank you, sir. much more coverage of the terror plot in boston and what else authorities are looking for now, when we come back. [ m ale y the cat appeared at their door, he opened up jake's very private world. at first, jake's family thought they saved ziggy, but his connection with jake has been a lifesaver. for a love this strong, his family only feeds him iams. compared to other leading brands, it has 50% more animal protein...
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welcome back. while still on the hunt for the teenage boston marathon bomber, law enforcement had discovered explosives inside the tsarnaev brothers' home in cambridge. reportedly the fbi found pipe bombs with fuses and a type of synthetic powder inside the
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apartment as well. i want to bring james cavanaugh back into the conversation, msnbc analyst, retired atf special agent in charge. he's also a former hostage negotiator as well. james, i want to pick up sort of where we left off last hour. do the devices and the tactics that these two deployed, do those things indicate specialized training or outside assistance? >> well, that's a great question, craig. i feel like there's more contact than just the self-radicalization by themselves and the internet. now, we don't know. we really don't have those facts. but you know i've been listening to your guests, mr. ervin and professor pape, and these are top people in the field. i have read professor pape's stuff. as a bomb investigator, there's the bomb and there's the bombers. and, you know, they have done a great job at the chicago project, i hope your viewers value the unbelievable deep information that he can provide
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here because they have studied inside the mind of these suicide bombers. you lock the bombers' experience with the bomb. you know, when the professor talks about the martyr video and the process to self-radicalize, the west does not get it. i mean the public in the west does not get this cult of death that bin laden unleashed on the world, this voi rusirus, we cal. and when you couple that with some skills in bomb making, it becomes this concoction, craig, that you're talking about. how does it work together. and we had the -- we had the american police kill a suicide bomber on u.s. soil yesterday. that doesn't happen very much. and i know the professor realizes it, and mr. ervin. this is a seminal prevent for us. the leadership from the white house to governor patrick has been great, but now we've got to exploit all the issues here. we've got to start exploiting
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the evidence. there's lots and lots of evidence. dzhokhar will sing like he's on "the voice." we'll get all the information from him. there will be more on the computer of his older brother, who's going to be more of the controller here and more the person who probably had some contacts and some schooling, and i think that's what we're going to see. >> bob, let me bring you back in here because james mentioned some of your work. i want to talk to you about something we were talking about during the last break, this idea that people like this can lead double lives successfully. >> right. >> this would not be unprecedented either. you mentioned the london bombings as well. >> it's not unprecedented but let me say even among suicide attackers, this would only fit at most the profile of 10%. so it's important to say that it is a black swan phenomenon but it does happen over and over. in the london bombers, in july, 2005, there were four. several were married and even their wives did not know they
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were leading this double life. how could they do that so successfully? well, in fact for quite a while, for a year before the attacks, they only met in small circles a few times. then actually just a few months before they bought an apartment together. that was a bit unusual. they separated themselves, and even the married men spent one or two nights a week in the couple weeks before the attack in the apartment. so their wives -- of course they're telling stories to their wives about what they're doing and they are just hanging out with a bunch of friends, they're not actually chasing girls, but the fact is, that doesn't necessarily -- that explains how they could lead this double life and get away with it for at least a few weeks or few months in the intense planning of the attack. >> james, before i let you go, i did want to bring you back in here really quickly. based on what we know about the bombs and based on what we know
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about the tactics that were used, is it safe to say that these two were planning for something perhaps even greater than the initial attack? >> craig, it was the beginning of a bombing campaign. the evidence is the pressure cooker bomb that was thrown at the watertown police and the eight improvised hand grenades. they were going to do at least another attack by using that pressure cooker bomb and then probably make some more. i don't think they were going to do another suicide bomb right away, i think they were going on some placement devices. we'll know. it may be on their computer. >> james cavanaugh, thank you for your expertise. folks, when we come back we'll go back to the white house for some more reaction to the suspect's capture. also we'll take a look at the international scope of this investigation as well. this is msnbc. mine was earned in djibouti, africa, 2004.
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that we have the courage and the resilience and the spirit to overcome these challenges and to go forward as one nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> that was president obama speaking at the white house last night after the arrest of the second suspect in the boston bombing. that suspect, 19-year-old dzhokhar tsarnaev, is in a boston area hospital this morning. he is in serious condition. he is also in the same hospital that is housing some of the survivors from the boston bombing. in an ironic twist. nbc's white house correspondent, kristen welker, is standing by for us at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. kristen, what can you tell us right now about communication between the white house and other countries as related to this investigation? >> reporter: well, a couple of thing, craig. first of all, president obama spoke with russian president vladimir putin last night. putin expressing his condolences on behalf of all of the russian
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people for the bombings in boston. it was a brief conversation and of course as is usual, white house officials didn't give us all of the details of that conversation, but i am told by senior administration officials that moving forward, law enforcement officials and members of the national security team will be in contact with their international counterparts when appropriate, so you can expect there to be a fair amount of communication moving forward as the investigation continues, as they try to answer some of those questions like how did those two brothers know how to make the bombs and did they have any assistance. of course those are some of the key questions that investigators want to get to the bottom of, moving forward, so we can expect there to be a fair amount of communication. we also know this, craig, that two years ago, the fbi questioned the older brother at the request of a foreign nation, and it seems as though that would be russia, to see if he had any ties to extremists. it was determined that he didn't at the time.
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so we know that there's already been communication between the two nations on this front, and you can expect that to continue moving forward. craig. >> you mentioned russian president vladimir putin. we know that president obama's relationship with mr. putin has been at the very least complicated over the years. how could that play a factor in all of this? >> reporter: well, look, i think the word "complicated" is a didngood word for this, craig. it's not clear how that will play a role. at this point it appears as though putin has reached out to the president and wants to work with him as they continue with this investigation, but as you point out, there have been strains between the two countries, for example. they haven't seen eye to eye in terms of how to handle syria. so there have been some points of contention. we should point out, though, that the two are expected to meet on the sidelines of the g-8 summit, which will occur this summer, so there is a chance for them to sit down and there has
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been some level of outreach prior to the boston bombings to try to smooth over relations. of course that hasn't exactly happened, so it's hard to see how that might play a role in this and i think we shouldn't assume that it will. investigators in this country again are going to be in close contact with their counterparts overseas to try to get to the bottom of this. >> kristen welker from the white house. thank you, kristen. >> reporter: thanks, craig. i want to bring back bob pape, director of the chicago project on security and terrorism, also clark kent ervin, director of the aspen institute's homeland security program. i'm going to read you, and this speaks to what we were just talking about, the larger kplications of something like this. representative peter king of new york is now warning of, quote, his words, an islamist terrorist threat to our country from within our borders. what do comments like that do for this? >> right. well, when representative king was chairman of the homeland security committee, he did a series of hearings about the threat of islamics in this
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country. i'm not surprised by that comment. i would just mention that the president last night specifically talked about this kind of thing by saying that we've got to remember that we're one country, that there's a tiny minority of people who are terrorists and so we've got to keep that in mind. that is a concern, needless to say, that kind of sentiment following an event like this, which obviously is tragic and has huge implications. >> let's talk again about some of the other larger implications, because there is and will undoubtedly continue to be a reluctance by a lot of folks when it comes to being taped in public places. had it not been for the surveillance video, had it not been for the surveillance footage, the pictures, where might we be right now in this investigation? >> right, craig, that's a great question. the answer is we might well be nowhere. in this age of twitter, social
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media, everybody is the guy who captured jfk's assassination on videotape. that was relatively primitive at that time. this points up the age-old question of the balance between security and liberty. we in america whipsaw between being willing to give up considerable privacy when we think we're under siege and swinging exactly the other way. i have been concerned over the last year and a half or so that we were beginning to think that we were out of the woods as far as terrorism is concerned and we could concentrate solely on traditional foreign policy threats like iran and syria and the instability of the korean peninsula. of course those threats remain large but this shows we are still a country in terrorist cross hairs both from abroad and from within. >> it sounds like you think this will reshape our focus as well. >> i think it will, no question about that. but at the same time we've got to make sure that we don't single out one particular community for attack and os t
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tracism. >> it's very common for them to sfwring we don't care at all to we exaggerate the threat. this is a common pendulum swing. it's also a mistake. and what we've also seen, just in the last week, is most of the coverage and most of the discussion by elites on both side of the aisle has been far more measured than what you just read by representative king. >> but it was measured because we were still a country in crisis. now that it seems that the crisis, perhaps, has subsided, now the nuts will come out. >> that's true, and this is where the media plays an even bigger role. in the months after the july 2005 bombings, there was a widespread wave of expectation in europe and even some in the united states of a wave of homegrown terrorism, hundreds of attacks that were going to occur in multiple different countries, and this unfortunately basically painted islam, any one who was simply a devout muslim, as
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somehow a potential terrorist just like someone who is a faithful christian would be an abortion bomber. this is obviously pushing the pendulum here in the wrong direction. >> let's take a quick break. going to pay some bills and come right back. you're watching msnbc's with the spark miles card from capital one,
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we are back now with our continuing look at the boston bombing investigation with clark kent irvin, also robert pape. clark, i want to come to you here because i want to talk to you about this idea that in this country we like to feel safe. we value our security. but at the end of the day when you've got two guyings like this who are hell bent on wreaking havoc in this country, who are hell bent ob hitting a soft target, what are we left to do? what more can we do that we are not doing in this country? >> well, it's a very good question, craig, and the answer is there's really precious little we could do to prevent an attack like this one. this was not just a soft target,
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but it was an open venue. 26 miles. there's no way we could have locked that down. we understand that there were sweeps all along the route in not just the days leading up to the marathon but in the hours. it seems we did everything we possibly could have done. the only thing we can do to deter the kind of thing going forward is what happened here. we need to call upon the resources of the american people as force multipliers to help us catch these people quickly. we need to continue what was an exemplary example of cooperation among the state and local levels. this is a classic textbook example of how law enforcement cooperation should work. >> one of the things i found most interesting, we've talked a lot about the technology that was used and surveillance video, the helicopter last night that used the infrared camera to detect that the 19-year-old suspect was, in fact, moving, but it was a concerned citizen just like with the d.c. sniper
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case, a concerned citizen who said this doesn't look right. i'm going to pick up the phone and call. >> there is one other thing we can do, and that's sting operations with the fbi. and this is something in my talks to the fbi that once we know more about the bombers' minds and again this kind of radicalizing cell that is just operating just among a couple of people, notice in other cases there have been -- they've reached out. they've actually reached out to terrorist organizations and what that means is there are opportunities for our security folks, say the fbi, to pose as intermediaries much like they would with drugs or in other circumstances to look for those looking to connect with those wider networks. and so if we wonder is there anything we can do to make ourselves safe? well, the truth is we can and i suspect we actually have had sting operations in other areas of the world, perhaps not so much with the russian area. >> one of the things that a lot
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of folks have said they find most distracting about this case in particular is you have two young men who seem to be fairly normal. they were not loners. one was not just a boxer, pretty good boxer. one was a high school wrestler. they had friends, and here they are living among us, allegedly living among us leading a susuc -- successfully leading a double life. how likely is it that there are other people like this in this country right now? how worried, how scared should we be? >> i think we should think of them as black swans. i think we should see that black swans do occur but just because you see one black swan doesn't mean all swans are black. so it doesn't also mean there's just a single black swan. it's very difficult for the public and truth be told for our government to deal with a low-lead nulow
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low-immediate numb threlow low-medium threat that never goes away. >> thank you for joining us that hour. msnbc's continuing coverage of the terror in boston will continue after a quick break. stay with us for all the latest updates. alex witt will continue our coverage on the other side of this break. wait a sec! i found our colors. we've made a decision. great, let's go get you set up... you need brushes... you should check out our workshops... push your color boundaries while staying well within your budget walls. i want to paint something else. government to deal with a coverage on the other side of more doing. that's the power of the home depot. behr premium plus interior paint, only at the home depot and starting at $23.46 a gallon. plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day women's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for women's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day 50+.
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